Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.

"The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.
>
> "The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin.

Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.
>
> "The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

Who exactly was able to determine whether the stick was pushed forward or back> Certainly not the pilot, as he or she was allegedly "killed".

'inverted' seems to be the key word.

At 11:41 02 June 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while
>turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and
was
>wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery
>technique.
>>
>> "The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a
steep
>banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick
>forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover
>which simply held them in the spin.
>
>Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?
>
>-Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>

If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 8:45:05 AM UTC-4, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
> 'inverted' seems to be the key word.

Not correct technique for that, either. Next.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

In no glider I am familiar with, do spin recovery instructions include holding the stick "full forward". That's the potentially fatal error (not convinced this is a discussion based on things that really happened, but....)

In most modern gliders the drill is some version of 1) opposite rudder (& select neutral or negative flap setting in some types) until rotation ceases, 2) completely relax all back pressure on stick, possibly adding a little forward movement to break the stall, 3) recover from the resulting dive. Unless a home built, there's a POH. It's usually a good place to start!

FWIW, my 20B is delightfully well behaved with modern winglets. A little less so with factory tips if the CG is near aft limit. The POH recommended procedures work just fine.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 9:59:03 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?
>
> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> >
> > Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?
> >
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8

Not a glider but, as the T-33a transitioned from a tail slide to an end
over end tumble, I applied the Dash One out of control procedure:

Throttle - Idle
Ailerons and Rudder - Neutral
Stick - Full Aft

The aircraft shook and shuddered and transitioned into an inverted
spin. The flight manual made no distinction between upright and
inverted spins so I continued the above procedure into the spin recovery
procedure:

Rudder - Opposite spin direction (look at the slip ball, not the trees,
and keep the rudder against the spin)

The aircraft transitioned into an erect spin (this I could handle!)

Stick - Forward and neutralize rudder when the spin stops and recover
from the dive. Watch out for that nasty secondary stall, the trees are
getting closer!

It's all about applying the correct controls for the situation and
feeling the aircraft. Each aircraft has its quirks. If you're
adventurous you should learn yours unless your flight manual prohibits
such maneuvers. My LS-6 would roll over the top in a final turn stall,
my LAK-17a is much more benign.

On 6/2/2015 8:16 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> In no glider I am familiar with, do spin recovery instructions include holding the stick "full forward". That's the potentially fatal error (not convinced this is a discussion based on things that really happened, but....)
>
> In most modern gliders the drill is some version of 1) opposite rudder (& select neutral or negative flap setting in some types) until rotation ceases, 2) completely relax all back pressure on stick, possibly adding a little forward movement to break the stall, 3) recover from the resulting dive. Unless a home built, there's a POH. It's usually a good place to start!
>
> FWIW, my 20B is delightfully well behaved with modern winglets. A little less so with factory tips if the CG is near aft limit. The POH recommended procedures work just fine.
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 9:59:03 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> If I am in a spin, I will do as taught and practiced, opposite rudder, stick forward, that is the proper spin recovery. Would you care to share your complete thought?
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
>>> Well, that's not the correct recovery techniques in *any* glider, is it?
>>>
>>> -Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:25:00 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Saw the quote below in another thread regarding spoilers open while turning (it was actually in the comment section under the video ) and was wondering if anyone could comment? This is the proper spin recovery technique.
>
> "The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

I have never heard of the behavior you describe.
When the '20 was new, a lot of pilots still subscribed to the idea that it was good to fly at the aft CG limit to maximize performance. This seems to have led to a number of unexplained spin accidents when landing. I never heard of an unrecoverable spin, nor going inverted as part of the spin. Someone may well have over done the forward stick and gone negative in the recovery.
My first '20 had some undocumented tail ballast that made it very ugly when I first flew it. I was quite proficient in spins so no bad came of it.
Interestingly the addition of external seals that came along later made the spin characteristics a bit more benign. Obviously some internal flow was going on in the trailing edge area.
'20 recovery is normal. Opposite rudder, neutralize stick, flaps neutral. When winglets are added, it is a bit more resistant to spinning, but slightly more abrupt when it departs, likely due to blanking of the tip by the inboard stalled winglet.
FWIW
UH

On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 08:38:32 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Not a glider but, as the T-33a transitioned from a tail slide to an end
> over end tumble, I applied the Dash One out of control procedure:
>
> Throttle - Idle Ailerons and Rudder - Neutral Stick - Full Aft
>
> The aircraft shook and shuddered and transitioned into an inverted spin.
> The flight manual made no distinction between upright and inverted
> spins so I continued the above procedure into the spin recovery
> procedure:
>
> Rudder - Opposite spin direction (look at the slip ball, not the trees,
> and keep the rudder against the spin)
>
> The aircraft transitioned into an erect spin (this I could handle!)
>
> Stick - Forward and neutralize rudder when the spin stops and recover
> from the dive. Watch out for that nasty secondary stall, the trees are
> getting closer!
>
> It's all about applying the correct controls for the situation and
> feeling the aircraft. Each aircraft has its quirks. If you're
> adventurous you should learn yours unless your flight manual prohibits
> such maneuvers. My LS-6 would roll over the top in a final turn stall,
> my LAK-17a is much more benign.
>

Its interesting that nobody has mentioned what it said in the handbook
for my ASW-20A: First action is to push flaps fully negative, then take
normal spin recovery action (stick central, full opposite rudder), adding
that the spin will very often stop when the flaps go negative.

That is exactly what mine did. I haven't forgotten that instruction,
though its 11 years since I last flew an ASW-20. I suspect a good reason
for this instruction is that pushing the flaps has two immediate
benefits:

(1) it will help unstall the wing, which is why that, by itself
can be enough to recover from the spin.

(2) it sets VNE as high as possible, which never hurts where a
steep dive is involved.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Power: idle
Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held in that position
Elevator: through neutral

this works inverted as well, and been tested over and over again to work in almost any aircraft (properly loaded)

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Flight-Training-Ratings-and-Proficiency/Stalls-and-Spins/AOPA-Online-Members-Only-Aviation-Subject-Report-Stalls-and-Spins-Stall-Spin-Awareness-Part-III

I know, perhaps that's why I said it?

In the UK we teach the recovery from an upright spin as follows:

Full opposite rudder.
Stick central and progressively forward until the spin stops.
The stick may have to go all the way forward.
When the spin stops, centralize the rudder and recover, carefully, from the
resulting dive.

The inverted spin recovery is a little different. Guess which bit?

Note I have no experience of recovery from an inverted spin, however the
following shows how its done.

Note the position of the stick whilst maintaining the spin.

Greg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ung4gmrqSU

At 14:02 02 June 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 8:45:05 AM UTC-4, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
>> 'inverted' seems to be the key word.
>
>Not correct technique for that, either. Next.
>
>-Evan Ludeman / T8
>

> "The ASW 20 killed a number of pilots by spinning inverted out of a steep banked turn with positive flaps in thermals. They would go full stick forward and rudder against the apparent rotation in an effort to recover which simply held them in the spin. "

I watched one of those early ASW 20 fatal spins. It was from slow straight and level flight, not thermaling. The wing dropped sharply and the glider entered a conventional, nose-down spin. The recovery began almost immediately (approx. 1/4 turn) but unfortunately there was not sufficient altitude (this began at approx. 300 ft AGL) and the pilot was killed when the glider impacted the ground slightly nose down (i.e., the recovery was almost complete) but still sinking. Undocumented tail ballast was probably a factor, as with UH's situation. Pilot incapacitation due to dehydration may also have been a factor. The final blow, so to speak, was the lack of a headrest in this very early '20 and a battery pack behind the head that came loose. The pilot was an experienced, high-time competition pilot and instructor. All of the contributing factors were avoidable.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

I was much more lucky in my ASW-27 at 70% CG when I had a windshear induced
stall while moving to flap L at ~300 above threshold. I lost 269' and was
fortunate to recover over lower ground before having to dodge a topsoil
pile in the neighboring gravel pit.

With headwind component = TAS - GS, the flight data shows 3 windshears,
each over a 2 second interval, of -17, +23, -28 kt (application of
Pythagorean sum of squares of a triangle on the final shear yields 6 kt of
apparent headwind giving -34 kt -- TWICE the recorded wind).

Recovery action was flaps negative and stick forward.

The usual stall practice at 3000 AGL with a 1 kt/second deceleration has
little resemblance to a low level windshear stall.

More details on:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lq9osn15bxy2siv/AAC5knN_JvkYRTuAwuYvScXya?dl=0

>I watched one of those early ASW 20 fatal spins. It was from slow
straight
>=
>and level flight, not thermaling. The wing dropped sharply and the glider
>e=
>ntered a conventional, nose-down spin. The recovery began almost
>immediatel=
>y (approx. 1/4 turn) but unfortunately there was not sufficient altitude
>(t=
>his began at approx. 300 ft AGL) and the pilot was killed when the glider
>i=
>mpacted the ground slightly nose down (i.e., the recovery was almost
>comple=
>te) but still sinking. Undocumented tail ballast was probably a factor,
as
>=
>with UH's situation. Pilot incapacitation due to dehydration may also
have
>=
>been a factor. The final blow, so to speak, was the lack of a headrest in
>t=
>his very early '20 and a battery pack behind the head that came loose.
The
>=
>pilot was an experienced, high-time competition pilot and instructor. All
>o=
>f the contributing factors were avoidable.
>
>Chip Bearden
>ASW 24 "JB"
>U.S.A.
>

I'm very glad this worked out.

But I have my doubts about the wisdom of using negative flaps for stall recovery, especially close to the ground. I don't think that this can be said to be a good practice in general and I would recommend heartily against in my own ASW-20B.

-Evan Ludeman / T8



On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 11:15:05 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> I was much more lucky in my ASW-27 at 70% CG when I had a windshear induced
> stall while moving to flap L at ~300 above threshold. I lost 269' and was
> fortunate to recover over lower ground before having to dodge a topsoil
> pile in the neighboring gravel pit.
>
> With headwind component = TAS - GS, the flight data shows 3 windshears,
> each over a 2 second interval, of -17, +23, -28 kt (application of
> Pythagorean sum of squares of a triangle on the final shear yields 6 kt of
> apparent headwind giving -34 kt -- TWICE the recorded wind).
>
> Recovery action was flaps negative and stick forward.
>
> The usual stall practice at 3000 AGL with a 1 kt/second deceleration has
> little resemblance to a low level windshear stall.
>
> More details on:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lq9osn15bxy2siv/AAC5knN_JvkYRTuAwuYvScXya?dl=0
>
> >I watched one of those early ASW 20 fatal spins. It was from slow
> straight
> >=
> >and level flight, not thermaling. The wing dropped sharply and the glider
> >e=
> >ntered a conventional, nose-down spin. The recovery began almost
> >immediatel=
> >y (approx. 1/4 turn) but unfortunately there was not sufficient altitude
> >(t=
> >his began at approx. 300 ft AGL) and the pilot was killed when the glider
> >i=
> >mpacted the ground slightly nose down (i.e., the recovery was almost
> >comple=
> >te) but still sinking. Undocumented tail ballast was probably a factor,
> as
> >=
> >with UH's situation. Pilot incapacitation due to dehydration may also
> have
> >=
> >been a factor. The final blow, so to speak, was the lack of a headrest in
> >t=
> >his very early '20 and a battery pack behind the head that came loose.
> The
> >=
> >pilot was an experienced, high-time competition pilot and instructor. All
> >o=
> >f the contributing factors were avoidable.
> >
> >Chip Bearden
> >ASW 24 "JB"
> >U.S.A.
> >

Didn't have the time to check exactly where the the flap handle was going.



At 12:00 04 June 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
>I'm very glad this worked out.
>
>But I have my doubts about the wisdom of using negative flaps for stall
>recovery, especially close to the ground. I don't think that this can be
>said to be a good practice in general and I would recommend heartily
>against in my own ASW-20B.
>
>-Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 11:15:05 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
>> I was much more lucky in my ASW-27 at 70% CG when I had a windshear
>induced
>> stall while moving to flap L at ~300 above threshold. I lost 269' and
was
>> fortunate to recover over lower ground before having to dodge a topsoil
>> pile in the neighboring gravel pit.
>>
>> With headwind component = TAS - GS, the flight data shows 3 windshears,
>> each over a 2 second interval, of -17, +23, -28 kt (application of
>> Pythagorean sum of squares of a triangle on the final shear yields 6 kt
>of
>> apparent headwind giving -34 kt -- TWICE the recorded wind).
>>
>> Recovery action was flaps negative and stick forward.
>>
>> The usual stall practice at 3000 AGL with a 1 kt/second deceleration
has
>> little resemblance to a low level windshear stall.
>>
>> More details on:
>>
>>
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lq9osn15bxy2siv/AAC5knN_JvkYRTuAwuYvScXya?dl=0
>>
>> >I watched one of those early ASW 20 fatal spins. It was from slow
>> straight
>> >=
>> >and level flight, not thermaling. The wing dropped sharply and the
>glider
>> >e=
>> >ntered a conventional, nose-down spin. The recovery began almost
>> >immediatel=
>> >y (approx. 1/4 turn) but unfortunately there was not sufficient
altitude
>> >(t=
>> >his began at approx. 300 ft AGL) and the pilot was killed when the
>glider
>> >i=
>> >mpacted the ground slightly nose down (i.e., the recovery was almost
>> >comple=
>> >te) but still sinking. Undocumented tail ballast was probably a
factor,
>> as
>> >=
>> >with UH's situation. Pilot incapacitation due to dehydration may also
>> have
>> >=
>> >been a factor. The final blow, so to speak, was the lack of a headrest
>in
>> >t=
>> >his very early '20 and a battery pack behind the head that came loose.
>> The
>> >=
>> >pilot was an experienced, high-time competition pilot and instructor.
>All
>> >o=
>> >f the contributing factors were avoidable.
>> >
>> >Chip Bearden
>> >ASW 24 "JB"
>> >U.S.A.
>> >
>
>

So far, I've been intentionnaly spinning almost all flapped gliders I flew (about two dozends), and putting flaps to full negative *always* helps to end the spin earlier. Especially close to the ground this is very important, as every fractions of a second counts. Many years ago, when I did an unintenional spin for stupid reasons close to the ground, the negative flaps saved my live.


> At 12:00 04 June 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
> >I'm very glad this worked out.
> >
> >But I have my doubts about the wisdom of using negative flaps for stall
> >recovery, especially close to the ground. I don't think that this can be
> >said to be a good practice in general and I would recommend heartily
> >against in my own ASW-20B.
> >
> >-Evan Ludeman / T8